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Friday, February 03, 2006

Where's My Lurpak?

OK, I was trying to keep my head down on the Danish cartoon fiasco. But I cannot ignore it any more, it's too important. This issue will probably go down in history as the week when the West and the Islamic world finally realise that they simply will never understand each other. I don't care to speculate about what might happen hereafter.

I do know this: if a similar act had been perpetrated against a Western target (Christ with a bomb on his head, for example) the response in the West would be a chuckle, a shrug of the shoulders. Doesn't matter. Not much bothered.

One of the basic issues here is that the West is largely secular. Religion is important to some people, but it is nothing like as demanding as being a devout Muslim. Western countries are no longer governed by ancient religious tracts, they are governed by humanism and rationality. To quote Voltaire:

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

And for every single European, this is something we know in our bones. Going against this, for a European, seems to be the exact equivalent of somebody making a joke about the prophet Mohammed. Don't go there. OK?

Nothing much happened back in September when these cartoons were first published, but the leader of the Danish Muslims wanted to whip up a bit of global attention. He printed a booklet containing reproductions of the published cartoons plus a few others that were far more offensive. One of them showed Mohammed (pbuh) with the face of a pig. You'll agree, even if you live on Mars, that that is pretty fucking offensive, but it was nothing to do with the Nyllens-Posten series. Anyhoo, our mullah goes to see the top boys in Egypt and Saudi and wherever else, and shows 'em the booklet. They're a bit upset, but nothing happens...

...until the Hajj tragedy in Makkah, when suddenly the Saudi Government press machine needed to deflect world attention from their never-ending incompetence, and so they turned their attention on the cartoons.

Now we have a boycott of Danish goods throughout the Arabian Gulf. Not as in individual customers not buying Danish goods, but supermarket chains pulling the stuff off the shelves. 'Excuse me, I want to buy a lot of Lurpak'. 'Sorry sir, it's in the cold store, we are supporting the pointless boycott of Danish products'. Hmmm.

So we now have the ridiculous situation where the Prime Minister of Denmark has offered an apology to the Muslim World. He was totally wrong to do so. Correction: apparently he has not apologised. He would be totally wrong to do so. It is not his responsibility. In a free country, the press can say what the hell they like. If that libels anyone then the libelled party has a proper legal path to seek redress. The Prime Minister is in no way responsible for the actions of individuals in his country.

Back to the Muslims. One of the issues is the so-called prohibition on any kind of image of the Prophet. Shi'a and Sufis don't even believe in that. It's not in the Quran, only a suspect Hadith:
http://www.crankyprofessor.com/archives/000492.html. Westerners just don't get it, really, is it the end of the world to draw a picture of anybody? Is it?

Of the twelve cartoons, (setting aside the idea that any kind of representation of the Prophet is supposed to be haram) only two of them can really be considered offensive. If you have not seen the cartoons, go here.

I'm really sorry that this has happened. But here's the thing. Westerners can and will say and publish what they want in their own countries. They have full, sovereign, legal authority to do so. They are not required to observe the sensitivities of Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or even Christians. They are not even beholden to the sensitivities of their own government (who, after all, are only elected short-term representatives) or of any other government. Unfamiliar with the concept? See this...

Freedom of men under government is to have a standing rule to live by, common to every one of that society, and made by the legislative power vested in it; a liberty to follow my own will in all things, when the rule prescribes not [if not illegal], and not to be subject to the inconstant, unknown, arbitrary will of another man.
- John Locke (1632 - 1704) Political Philosopher and Genius

As long as you are not directly inciting violence against members of a particular religion or slandering any individual then it's OK. I, as a Westerner, I know this in my bones.

And so I am deeply disappointed by the local reaction to this controversy. It is unreasonable, it is directed at the wrong people (not just an apology is demanded locally, but an OATH from the Danish PM that this would never happen again - as if he could even think of doing such a thing). It just highlights two utterly different ways of looking at the world that can probably not be reconciled.
The west: we can say what we like.
The east: no you can't.

Dammit, it was all going so well. My bones are aching.

Labels: ,

71 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said.

Now if only the parties in question would actually read it...

11:01 pm  
Blogger CG said...

All of the Locals I have spoken to who were protesting admitted that they had not personally seen the cartoons, and were taking the word of the Imam in the mosque. I said I want my Lurpak back and that is all I understand. I feel there is a case of not lowering yourself to others levels in here somewhere..
this cannot be happening. There is always someone looking for a fecking problem. Always. If it is not Iraq, then France, then Iran, then USA now Lurpak (oops denmark). Tomorrow will be whose turn?

1:17 am  
Blogger redstar said...

I think you've expressed the whole situation very lucidly.

A bunch of nonsence, the whole lot of it.

My favourite part - Palestinian groups storming the charities that donate money to them. Bizarre.

2:14 am  
Anonymous yazzi said...

I saw this blurb in the Gulf News today:

"We will not accept less than severing the heads of those responsible," one preacher told worshippers at the Al Omari Mosque in the Gaza Strip as tensions spread over the publication of the cartoons.

This is why I personally will always see bombs in Mohammad's turban.

3:25 am  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

why didn't u say so to European governments when they asked for Saudi's Islamic teaching to be changed ?! aren't they free to teach whatever they feel is right ?!

is whats happening to iraqi's prisoners in Basra and Abo guraib under the americans and british what u call civilised world ?

is ,what happened to the British author who was jailed in Austria because of his views on holocaust, what u call European Freedom of speech ?!
i cant understand westerners, especially british and americans when they claim they r very democratic and they live in a free world .... blah blah
haven't they heard of the "dodgy PhD used by Tony to justify the war " !, or the made up pictures of WMD " produced and edited by Colin Powell "!
what about the recently discovered memo by Channel 4 of the conversation between Blair and Bush before the war, when Bush offered to provoke sadam to bring down and American spy airplane coloured with UN colours !then Blair told him he is with him regardless !
what a democracy !
or Ian's issue, they say iran shouldn't develop nuclear weapons because it threatened to wipe another " country" off the map !, while this other "country" has already wiped a whole country off and displaced its population !

what ppl in the middle east dont like is the double standards of the west !.
they went to iraq to free iraqis from Sadam and they killed in 3 years more than sadam did over 30 years !
they publish reports daily condemning human rights' violations in the world , and the humiliate and torcher innocent civilians in iraq, afghanistan, Guantinamo ..etc everyday !

finally they defend freedom of press while no one can dare to deny the holocaust or even question the scale !
last week Americans were as usual defending this right, yesterday the pentagon and Bush's generals were outraged by a cartoon publish in Washington post showing a limbless soldier with Rumsfeld as a doctor next to him !
May 2004, Several US newspapers refused to print a cartoon by Garry Trudeau, which was due to be published two weeks after US civilian Nicholas Berg was beheaded in Iraq. Then after the washigton post published it, it caused a lot of anger and he was forced to apologise ! (poor him, his right was taken from him ) !


redstar
Hitler was Christian, does that give the excuse to say this is all because of Jesus (pbup)??!

slavery was done by Christians and under the church ruling, is that what Christianity is all about ?!

6:12 am  
Blogger Keefieboy said...

emiraty: the Bushes and the Blairs will be out of power before too long. I didn't personally vote for them, and I do not defend what has happened in Iraq. But I do know this: their hold on power is constitutionally limited. Whatever the rights and wrongs of their actions, they are only allowed to serve for a limited amount of time, and then they will be replaced.

6:51 am  
Anonymous razzi said...

Emiraty

You believe whatever is told to you by your anti-western government. You believe in lies. That is such a shame, that you allow your mind to be poisoned by your lying dictators.

Anyway - it doesn't matter.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CUT OFF MY HEAD BECAUSE SOME DANISH IDIOT DREW A CARTOON.

I hope you can understand this sentence. You believe in ancient, moldy justice...and eye for an eye and all that crap. If you actually want to use this justice...then fine. When someone tortures you, make them pay for it. But stay out of my life, because I have not done anything to you. Understand? Because if you don't, then "eye for an eye, sin for a sin" applies, right?

So you're mad, you're offended, and you throw a punch at me because I'm from the offending country. Fine...you die then...and it's going to hurt. Justice. Hope you're happy with that idea...because you came up with it.

7:45 am  
Blogger confused arab chick said...

razzi and emiraty...

ure arguements. are why this issue has become a big mess. people don't listen. and apply double standards.
on both ends.
being stubburn isn't going to fix this problem.


And keefieboy, i'm sorry you can't find your butter- I really am.
But it will blow over, and the lurpak will be back on the shelves..

10:30 am  
Blogger AkaRound Peg said...

http://desicritics.org/2006/02/03/002955.php

http://desicritics.org/2006/02/03/002955.php

Interesting posts on the same topic.

10:48 am  
Anonymous Dammami said...

No worries Keefieboy. This boycott of Denmark is simply the Saudi plate du jour, and will be as quickly forgotten as the boycott of American products a few years back.

God, what really pisses is me off are the arguments other Muslims will use to justify this utter stupidity. It always goes something like this:

1. Change the subject to something completely irrelevant but easier to defend.
2. Claim your opponent is being apologetic for kuffars.
3. Declare victory.

I swear I had this conversation yesterday (Friday, just after prayers):

Me: You know, its not fair punishing dairy companies and their local represantitives over a cartoon published by a newspaper they have no relation with.
Other Muslim: Oh? And is it fair when Americans drop bombs on weddings? Is THAT fair???
Me: uh, no but...
Other Muslim: Its no use talking to you! You like kuffars too much!

God I'm so pissed...

11:25 am  
Blogger mortal thoughts said...

Keefie and other "secular" friends-

Why did the whole Brit media jump up and down when Prince Harry wore the outfit with a Nazi emblem? Why did they demand an apology from him? Although he is just a kid (a playful one at that).

He apologised and promised not to do it again. Matter finished.

The Danish PM DID NOT apologise until recently and REFUSED to meet with 21 ambassadors of Islamic countries till Friday - 3/2/06) Frankly nobody asked him to apologise anyway. The dim witted twit, who drew the cartoons should have been sacked and the newspaper apologise. Matter finished. But no. The West is hell bent on proving the Islam is all terrorism . And we will not give in to them. Good for you. Shows your intellectual capacity.


Anyway please read carefully:

1. If he drew the cartoon thinking of Prophet Muhammed as man with a bomb then he needs to be sacked for his ignorance alone. Anyone with a basic sense knows what the Prophet was.

2. Have you seen ANY Muslim or your friends OBL, Aymen Zawahiri or Al Zarqawi ever insult any religion or religious figures? And you call them terrorists and that stupid journo educated?

3. WE DONT LIKE ANYBODY RIDICULING OUR PROPHET, THE QUR'AN OR ALLAH - Is that not understood? Cannot the so called intellects of the west absorb this in their pea sized brains?

4. Do you think this is free speech? If so I will post here random abuses for you parents- would you like it?

Please please understand and be a catalyst for understading to the West. Because you live here and you know what Islam is about.

2:06 pm  
Blogger Keefieboy said...

Mortal Thoughts: the Danish PM cannot be held responsible for the actions of individuals in his country. This is the entire point of freedom of speech. If he were to apologise, it a would an insincere act.

The editor of the paper has apologised. The cartoonists cannot be 'sacked' they were freelancers who were commissioned to do a job.

If he drew the cartoon thinking of Prophet Muhammed as man with a bomb then he needs to be sacked for his ignorance alone. Anyone with a basic sense knows what the Prophet was.

Not so, my friend, absolutely not. The vast majority of non-Muslims in the West are utterly ignorant of what Islam truly is and what it stands for. I cannot emphasise this enough. And the association with terrorism is now so strong that I do not know what would make it go away - but certainly not more terror.

Is that not understood? Cannot the so called intellects of the west absorb this in their pea sized brains?

See above.

Please please understand and be a catalyst for understading to the West. Because you live here and you know what Islam is about.

I am flattered that you think I could play such a role. But this raises another issue: why the vast majority of Muslims who are good, gentle and generous cannot make themselves heard above the insane threats of the mobocracy. Not here, not in the West, not anywhere.

2:30 pm  
Anonymous Dammami said...

Mortal Thoughts,

I will try to explain free speech to you, and hope that your brain can absorb it.

You said:

"3. WE DONT LIKE ANYBODY RIDICULING OUR PROPHET, THE QUR'AN OR ALLAH"

I don't like Chinese food. Why don't I just go into a hissy fit and demand every Chinese restaurant be closed?

Free speech doesn't work that way my friend. Free speech means that anybody has the right to say anything, and if little old me doesn't like it, I have the right to ignore it or issue a counter-statement.

I do NOT have the right to make them stop. Its simple. If they want to make crude drawings of the Prophet, fine. I just wont look at them. How hard is that...?

2:32 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mmmm...Lurpak [drooling like Homer Simpson]...

I'm a westerner living in the UAE. I can understand that muslims don't want their prophet depicted in any way, although there seem to be some differences as to whether that's actually part of Islam or not.

What I cannot understand what right they have to impose their beliefs on others, like people in Denmark and elsewhere? And do it with guns, kidnap people, throw bombs into buildings etc. All this and more has happened in the last few days under the disguise of being upset about the cartoons.

Yes, Christians have killed scores of people throughout history in the name of their religion. So have muslims, so have [you can pick pretty much any religion].

I think Bush is a stupid nit-wit and Blair is not far behind on the stooopid-scale. I don't agree with their actions, and I don't agree with most of what they believe in politically. But I do support them believing it and saying what they say.

In the UAE you have to be afraid not to say the wrong thing, or do the wrong thing. Things that are totally acceptable in the west in terms of doing and saying are not accepted here, and they have nothing to do with religion. This is a closed society in many ways, it's ruled in a dictatorial fashion, and there is clear government control of media. All those things are not acceptable in a modern society, I think, and they make it hard to keep any fruitful dialogue going with such countries.

I hope the Lurpak is back soon. It's the best butter there is, I believe, and I'm not even Danish ;-)

3:59 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The thing that bothers me about this incident and actually numerous others related to other religions is this:

Are people today so insecure about the religion they follow, that every time anybody says anything stupid about their religion, they throw all their toys out of the cot?

My belief is that those who truly believe in their religion will never get swayed and upset by what others say about it, because their belief is beyond earth-life matters such as a cartoon in a Danish newspaper.

Maybe those protesting are simply not true Christains or Muslims or Jews...

4:19 pm  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

razzi
i seriously dont know what u r talking about !
and what i mentioned is all according to british and american media ! nothing from my government's own media !
thirdly, its true my government is not elected democratically, but believe it or not we "as citizens" LOVE it and dont want american style democracy !(thanks for ur offer )

damami,
whats the similarity between the offensive cartoons and Chinese food ?!

oh well to summarise think what sparkled all this is the double standards when dealing with middle east! which lowered the threshold of tolerance by ppl in the region.

when u c them using freedom and human rights against some countries and some topics and leave the rest, of course u get angry !

in 1990 most ppl were pro westerns and loved the democracy and freedom of speech in the west, but look at them now ! most ppl r disgusted by the very idea of democracy and human rights !

5:52 pm  
Anonymous Dammami said...

razzi said:

"whats the similarity between the offensive cartoons and Chinese food ?"

I find Chinese food to be offensive. Those are my beliefs. I'm free to have any beliefs I want aren't I?

So everytime you eat Chinese food, you offend me, so I guess I will demand that your government apologize to me for every Sweet and Sour chicken you ever had, and I'll also issue a fatwa on your head for good measure.

Yeah, it sounds crazy, but no crazier than causing an International incident over something that should just be _ignored_ like every other quasi-anti-Islamic thing thats ever been published.

Of course, no one is challenging your right to get angry. As a Muslim, there's nothing wrong with being offended by these cartoons, but we should draw the line somewhere regarding our reaction, and asking a European country to break its citizenry's constitutional rights just to please us goes way beyond that line.

6:32 pm  
Anonymous Trillian said...

I don't know about the rest of you, but the way I see it, we muslims have just proven the point made by those cartoons. The Danish newspaper apologised, but you have to wonder how much an apology is worth when it comes after economic pressures and ugly threats to blow up every Dane within muslim reach. Wouldn't it have been better to earn respect than threaten it out of people? And what happened to the original peaceful, tolerant and admirable ideologies that were taught by our Prophet (pbuh)in the first place? Forget the boycott, the correct way forward should have been education... and maybe blowing up every fake muslim who ever soiled our religion by shedding innocent blood.

10:15 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gents,

I went through your comments and all what I can say to westerns living in the middle east, that since you left your wonderful countries and came to live with us, then you should respect our feelings. If you don't understand why we are angry, or if you relate Prophet Mohammad PBUH with Chinese food, then at least RESPECT our anger and try to do some effort to find out why we are angry! And for those who can't live without Lurpak, you can get a taxi and ask the driver to take you to the nearest airport to take the first flight back to you countries and enjoy Lurpak to the maximum!

11:15 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If you don't understand why we are angry, or if you relate Prophet Mohammad PBUH with Chinese food, then at least RESPECT our anger and try to do some effort to find out why we are angry!"

Oh, please do tell us why are you so angry over cartoons you probably havent even seen? Enlighten us all...

10:58 am  
Anonymous Dammami said...

anon above, ce moi...

10:59 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And for those who can't live without Lurpak, you can get a taxi and ask the driver to take you to the nearest airport to take the first flight back to you countries and enjoy Lurpak to the maximum!

Oh, it's the 'if you don't like it here then bugger off' argument being wheeled out again on us westerners. I wondered how long that was going to take.

3:43 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Oh, please do tell us why are you so angry over cartoons you probably havent even seen? Enlighten us all... “

First, I have seen the cartoons, and I have heard about them before I saw them. Second, to “Enlighten you all”, Prophet Mohammad is the person that we love more than our parents, our family and even ourselves. Imagine that someone you don’t know said about your parents (in public) some insults. You would be upset even if these insults were a true description, so what if this insult was a fake description, and insult??! Would you smile and say: “this is his opinion, I don’t mind if he said it again if this will please him!” Well if you would say this, then thank God that we didn’t! Prophet Mohammad is the best person humanity has ever known, and whether you like what I am saying or not, this is your decision, but insulting him means that you also insult the people who love and follow him. If I insult your father in front of you then I am insulting you too!
The person who made the cartoons showed him like a “terrorist” (your favorite word), as if he taught Muslims to be terrorists. I will repeat again, if you don’t know what you are talking about, go and find out instead of defending “ a free mind” made cartoons insulting a Prophet and a Nation! By the way, it was written on BBC Online that “the person who made the cartoons has very limited information on Prophet Mohammad”, which was good news for me; as if Mr. Loser in the class confirms that the star is smaller in size than the moon because this is his point of view. Well, let him be happy with his theory as long as the star is not a family member, and we all know Mr. Loser is a loser; but this in not our case here… Oh, sorry, we still know that Mr. Loser is a loser!

11:55 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Oh, it's the 'if you don't like it here then bugger off' argument being wheeled out again on us westerners. I wondered how long that was going to take. “

Exactly what I wanted to say, but I am polite!

11:57 pm  
Blogger sheikha cheryl said...

I just want my butter back. I hate being manipulated and that is what is happening. We are being manipulated into buying other products for a botcott that is utterly ridiculous. Let the consumer decide to boycott, not the suppliers. They can't even get a boycott right.

Free Speech will never go away. If you don't like it, don't read it. It is that easy. If if burns your ears to hear it, then don't listen. You also have the freedom, so exercise it and stop suppressing the rest of us.

These people should be taking a hard look at the Amish. The corruption and modernization is all around them, and they CHOOSE to ignore it and live their lives the way they wish without repressing anyone around them.

This whole thing is a debacle. I just want my butter back.

8:31 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"....what ppl in the middle east dont like is the double standards of the west !.
they went to iraq to free iraqis from Sadam and they killed in 3 years more than sadam did over 30 years !"

(Above quote from Emirati).

At last, a bit of truth! Haven't I been saying all along that those suicide bombers are all Americans? Oh you congenital liars! Remember the cardinal rule: if we can't agree, then you must be wrong and I must be right. (Even if I successfully sidetracked the real issue.)

Now...

"The Danish PM DID NOT apologise until recently......Frankly nobody asked him to apologise anyway."

(Above quote from Mortal Thoughts.)

See? What's all the fuss about? No one asked for any apologies...and all we keep getting is this apoplexy from the West.

And finally...

"4. Do you think this is free speech? If so I will post here random abuses for you parents- would you like it?" (Mortal Thoughts)

My father passed away in 1993, my mother is still alive. I realise you probably haven't met them, even so, I would like to invite you to give your opinion of them. (You may do so in this thread, if you like, or email it to me at "modest_boy(at)hotmail.com".)

I have no idea what you are going to write about my parents, however, as you have promised "random abuses", I probably won't like what you write. I might even be offended, pained and displeased. However, please understand that I WILL DEFEND YOUR RIGHT TO YOUR OPINION OF MY PARENTS, AND YOUR RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR OPINION. I may tell you, and I may tell others, that I didn't like what you said. But I will not ask you for an apology (leave alone the Prime Minister of your country) nor will I threaten you in any way.

2:38 pm  
Anonymous Jason said...

Dear Mr. Anonomous Parent Insulter...(What's your name, anyway? Writing criticisms under anonomous is like holding banners threatening to kill Danes while wearing a scarf wrapped around your face. Cowardly)

We can have all the "Yo Mama" contests you would like. You may insult my mother, father, sister, brother...all you want. As a matter of fact, the completely assinine way you even equate the reaction of the Muslim Mob to these cartoons as being angry over insulting parents...is already insulting.

Sorry - I am way more intelligent and civilized than that. I don't express my anger in violent, murderous ways. I am a mature adult who doesn't enjoy killing human beings, and who does not get my jollies on seeing blood spurting out of headless torsos. Just doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, unlike some of the ignorant masses we've been seeing all over the news lately.

So - insult Mom and Dad. Lay it on me. I won't care...because your opinion, while dumb, is YOURS. That's right - it's YOUR opinion, and you have a right to it. And no matter how much you would like me to get angry and try to kill you after that, so you could say "SEE?? NOW YOU KNOW HOW IT FEELS!!", I won't do it.

And by the way - I'm not Muslim. I don't know anything about Mohammad. But if he was so wonderful and kind, then while I am sure he is thankful that his followers are so righteous in defending his honor...I be willing to bet he is not very proud of all the millions of @ssholes out there who are scarring Islam with their psychoscreaming and murderous acts, and their placquards warning Europe that their 9/11 is coming...and all that insane crap.

I doubt Mohammad would be out their yelling "Whoo Hoo! We killed all those innocent Americans in New York - Yeah - so watch out Europe...It's Crazy Islam...YEAH - that's right - we're CRAZY and we're COMMIN TO GET'CHA TOO!!!"

Love and worship your prophet. I love and worship mine too. But don't try to justify unnessecary violence by insulting my mother. It's lame.

8:37 pm  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

i have to say that, i totally disagree with the riots and violence against westerners, and foreign embassies !!

this is stupidity !,most immigrant muslims in the west weren't hurt after terrorists did what they did in madrid and london under the name of islam !

in lebanon last sat, a group of idiots destroyed other lebnanese cars and properties !thinking they were defending islam !

islam has nothing to do with that !

this is the real problem, ppl who never prayed, suddenly they know more about Quran and Islam than any of us !!

and in the west its even worse ! young msulims there dont receive any proper islamic teaching and some of them end up listening to terrorists believing anything they say !

10:55 pm  
Anonymous Jason said...

Emiraty - You sound like a decent fellow. But look:

In regards to your earlier post:

Bush going into Iraq because of WMD = AMERICAN PROPAGANDA

Bush wanting to bomb Al Jazeerra, wanting to provoke Sadamm into shooting down a fake UN plane, Bush and Blair want to rule the world... = ARABIC PROPAGANDA

Come on dude - American's don't believe the propaganda that our own media churns out and shoves down our throats - we are smarter than that. WHY do you believe the propaganda that "Channel 4" (whoever that is) and Al Jazzerra and whoever else shoves down yours? Aren't you smarter than that too?

I mean, do you actually believe that Sadamm was a GOOD GUY? I don't agree with this war, but you know, history shows us that Evil Dictators get ousted. It's been happening forever. Maybe middle eastern people can sit quietly and watch themselves be exterminated in mass genocides with no reason, and have themselves living in abject poverty under oppressive, total rule while their leaders live in golden palaces and hoard every penny from the sale of natural resources that actually belong "to the people"...but the rest of the world can not. Saddam and his minions were NOT the good guys. Personally, I see the fact that Sadamm Hussein is still walking around a failure on the part of the USA.

Common sense please.

And Mortal Thoughts:

"2. Have you seen ANY Muslim or your friends OBL, Aymen Zawahiri or Al Zarqawi ever insult any religion or religious figures?"
No, but he does wish death to all Americans, and really won't shut up until he succeeds (he won't, by the way).

" And you call them terrorists and that stupid journo educated?"
Yes.

"3. WE DONT LIKE ANYBODY RIDICULING OUR PROPHET, THE QUR'AN OR ALLAH - Is that not understood?"
Yes, I think you've made yourself clear. Actually, all you had to do was say it. All the threats and killing and burning were just overkill.

"Cannot the so called intellects of the west absorb this in their pea sized brains?" Funny, I thought Muslim Extremists were the ones with the Pea-Sized Brains. The brains with no room for common sense nor reason.

12:25 am  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

jason
Channel 4 is a british channel, which i highly respect and believe.
aljazeera, im not a big fan of aljazzera, but i think they r the middle east Fox news !they have a propaganda and they stick hard to it !, they know what ppl wana hear and they say it to them. unfortunately, the british and americans' troops r not helping !
and yes i believe Bush wanted to bomb aljazzera because i believe BBC news.
And yes again I believe Bush wanted to provoke Sadam for two reason, one because it was channel 4 who said that, two I think Bush is running the world cowboy style, so expect anything.
Sadam, no sadam was never a good guy !
i didnt like sadam, still dont like him, but i dont think it was america's business to change him! and the war was illegal and still is.
u seriously think Bush give a damn about iraq's?.
ok lets assume for a moment Bush is a very humane nice guy and he couldn't take what sadam was doing to his ppl, why doesn't he show same sympathy toward Zimbabwean's ppl !
I think the middle east ppl r smart enough to solve their problems ! but ppl like Bush don't allow them to do so !, 30 years ago americans brought sadam and Bin ladin to the region and gave them all the weapons and technology they needed !and they also encouraged the governments in middle east to suppress all the ppl who didn’t like the two heroes ! now, all the ppl who support the two heroes are terrorists!. He is now enforcing his "democracy", and who ever doesn’t like it go to jail! .it took America and Europe hundreds of years and a lot of civil wars to reach democracy! So give them the chance. Let them evolve.

as i said earlier, the current American administration has ruined all the respect previous governments had built in the region over years. Now ppl change the channel as soon as bush starts talking, where It used to be the opposite, ppl used to wait for American's presidential speeches.

And that’s why I feel its funny for americans' and british in specific to talk about human rights and freedom of speech ! I think they should work on their governments' actions before criticising others. At least, so others can start looking up to them again as an example of the better world.

2:00 am  
Anonymous Dammami said...

Always happens. You get into an e-debate about anything, butter, the weather, body functions, anything at all, and it always ends up in a scuffle over the legitimacy of the war on Iraq.

Here's the non sequitur train of thought that leads in this tangent.

1. You think reaction over cartoons is be extreme.
2. But you is Western infidel!
3. Infidels kill people in Iraq!!
4. You am not respecting human rights!! No butter for you!!

Sheesh...

For the record I'm not a western infidel. I'm Saudi, but I think the reaction over the cartoons is the stupidest thing ever.

Danish Cartoonist: I drew a cartoon that shows all Muslims are terrorists. Hehe!

Muslim street reaction: How dare you insult us and say we are bloodthirsty terrorists!!?? For this crime your head must be severed from your body and your government must kiss our asses before our anger fades! If you do not comply we will slaughter Danes by the thousands so that you will learn NEVER to think of us as terrorists again!

Bleh...

Oh, oh! Here comes your argument again: You do not understand why we are so angry!

Yes I do. Its because you get upset over insignificant stuff.

Its a cartoon. Nobody died. GROW UP.

2:29 am  
Anonymous jason said...

I take back what I said Emiraty. I don't think you're very smart at all.

Stop believing in fairy tales, and buy some history books from the non-fiction section for a change.

PROPAGANDA KILLS. Stop watching the news and think for yourself.

8:58 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jason,

Even if Emiraty speaks with typical Arab logic, at least he doesn't go aroud burning embassies. That makes him a whole lot better than what we're seeing of the "Arab Street".

And Emiraty, I quote you:

"in lebanon last sat, a group of idiots destroyed other lebnanese cars and properties !thinking they were defending islam !"

Well, in Iraq every day, suicide bombers blow up dozens of their Iraqi brothers, including children, killing or permanently maiming them, thinking they are winning great victories for "the resistance".

"Haha! I just blew up my brother and his family! One in the face for you, America!"

Wouldn't it be nice if the Americans pulled out and these people took over?

And yet, as Dammami observed, this discussion is about Lurpak butter.

4:53 pm  
Blogger Shafique said...

In the Evening Standard (London) of 6 Feb 05, the following article by Peter Oborne on the editorial page struck me of worthy of reproduction:

Here is an extract

"I do not think that a great issue of free speech is at stake here. Even if I did, I wouuld never want to die in a ditch to defend the right to abuse a great religious leader.

Those who defend the right to publish the cartoon on the basis that we have have free speech in modern Western societies are wrong. There are all kinds of things we cannot say, and for very admirable reasons. We cannot insult minority groups. We cannot say that slavery was right. We cannot say that the Holocaust was a good thing.

If you made those claims in certain parts of London you could rely on a very violent response indeed, and very few observers would feel that was unreasonable. It seems natural for Muslims to ask that we do not insult the man they regard as the exemplar of all human goodness, and quite right for us to agree.

This row over the cartoons is about a misunderstanding between two great cultures. There are vocal and important minorities on both sides who want to widen the rift between the Muslim world and the liberal West into an abyss.

But most people, Muslims and liberals alike, hope we can live together in a tolerant way."

4:58 pm  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

jason, I didn’t ask for ur approval ,thanks anyway!

i will read history books about whats happening now when they r out !

well, i cant be in iraq and afganistan ! so of course i have rely on media, i know what makes sense and what doesnt.so i watch and read all media availble and try to make sense of them.
on the other hand , most americans only watch fox news or similar channels, and they know nothing else other than what fox tells them. so think for urself !dont let others tell u how 2 think.

Anon
yeah the same thing in iraq they r blowing eachothers.

5:11 pm  
Anonymous Dammami said...

"on the other hand , most americans only watch fox news or similar channels, and they know nothing else other than what fox tells them. so think for urself !dont let others tell u how 2 think.
"


The percentage of Americans who watch Fox (which I hate like the plague btw) is faaaaar less than the percentage of Arabs and Muslims who watch Al-Jazeera.

Here is what we hear on Al-Jazeera on a daily basis:

1. Nothing in the Islamic world is the fault of Muslims, so don't bother self-questioning or trying to improve, just go into a rabid fit and blame the west.

2. Saddam was a hero, and also a very warm and fuzzy guy.

3. Bin Laden is a role model for Muslims anywhere.

4. Offensive cartoons are a good enough excuse to get into a raging fit and burn and kill people.

6:13 pm  
Blogger Tim Newman said...

If you don't understand why we are angry, or if you relate Prophet Mohammad PBUH with Chinese food, then at least RESPECT our anger and try to do some effort to find out why we are angry!

Oh, we understand why you are angry. It's the violence and threats we object to.

6:31 pm  
Blogger Tim Newman said...

30 years ago americans brought sadam and Bin ladin to the region and gave them all the weapons and technology they needed !

I think you need to vary your reading material a little. The above is bollocks.

6:33 pm  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

damamai, not sure if u r american or saudi, however,i dont really like aljazzera as i said before but, if u believe in freedom of speech let them say whatever they want ! u should accept the other side of the story.

Tim Newman
americans supported bin laden to fight the russians, and supported sadam to fight iranians ! and these r facts.

8:41 pm  
Anonymous Dammami said...

@emiraty

"damamai, not sure if u r american or saudi, however,i dont really like aljazzera as i said before but, if u believe in freedom of speech let them say whatever they want ! u should accept the other side of the story."

Sure. Al-Jazeera can glorify Saddam Hussein from here until doomsday for all I care. And they can fan the fire and try to piss Muslims off at Denmark. Its their right to free speech even if it is stupid.

Its _not_ anyone's right however, to demand apology from any Danish party. Its _not_ anyone's right to issue fatwas on the cartoonists' heads. Its _not_ anyone's right to ask the Danish government to behead the cartoonists. Its _not_ anyone's right to torch Danish missions abroad.

Most of all, Its _not_ anyone's right to have Lurpak pulled from supermarkets. Thats not freedom of speech or religion or anything. I believe the scientific term for that is "bollocks".

11:14 pm  
Blogger Hatem said...

"Oh, we understand why you are angry. It's the violence and threats we object to."

We also object violence and threats. The problem is that if anyone did something wrong and called himself a Muslim, the whole world think that this is recommended by Islam, and unfortunately we cannot prove that it’s not a must that if anyone call himself “Muslim” is a real Muslim. There is no "papers" showing if you are a Muslim or not. To me Islam is a wonderful religion and if we lived in a society applying Islam as a whole, we will have a piece of heaven on earth, but as I said, our major problem is that we are held responsible for any act anyone does and call himself a Muslim. In my opinion, it’s very beneficial to western governments to show that all Muslims are that bad, so that when they attack countries having petrol or opposing Israel, no one of the western nations will feel “sympathy” with those “bad” Muslims people.

But anyway, “we don’t ask for your approval” as Emiraty said. For sure we will never reach an approach with you guys. You believe in your own believes and we believe in ours, as Jason said. That’s fine!

By the way, I am the anonymous who wrote the first few lines of your quote. This is for the sake of Mr. Jason who called me a "Parent Insulter!!" Just wanted to say that I haven’t yet signed up when I posted my first one. I wonder what difference this will make to him after I removed the “scarf wrapped around my face”…

11:17 pm  
Blogger kaya said...

HOOO BOY! Real can of worms you got openened up here.
I think I will go fishing.....

11:24 pm  
Anonymous Emiraty said...

Dear Lurbac's lovers,
Its _not_ anyone's right to force a shop keeper to sell specifies goods.
if they decide not to sell Lurbac, then thats thier right and they r entitled to that. the government has nothing to do with all that. its personal freedom.

2:19 am  
Blogger Hatem said...

I agree with Emiraty. It's a free choice for shops to sell or not what they want. If someone really needs Danish products and can't live without them, then he can feel free to go and live in Denmark. Maybe he will get them for better price also!

8:32 am  
Blogger samuraisam said...

I searched through this document for the word "publicity" or "stunt" but couldn't find it anywhere....
Just so you know, "samurai sam" has more google results than the cartoonists.

You can read my 17 cents on the issue here

9:06 am  
Anonymous Oscar said...

So. Bloggers block?

9:57 am  
Blogger Tim Newman said...

americans supported bin laden to fight the russians, and supported sadam to fight iranians ! and these r facts.

As far as I have been able to fathom, there is no solid evidence to show that the Americans supported Bin Laden to fight Russians, and the extent to which the US supported Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war is insignificant compared to the support he received from elsewhere, being very limited in scope and reluctantly given as it was. But I stand by my previous claim that your previous statement:

30 years ago americans brought sadam and Bin ladin to the region and gave them all the weapons and technology they needed !

is utter bollocks.

10:33 am  
Blogger Tim Newman said...

In my opinion, it’s very beneficial to western governments to show that all Muslims are that bad, so that when they attack countries having petrol or opposing Israel, no one of the western nations will feel “sympathy” with those “bad” Muslims people.

Well, in the opinion of many in the west:

it’s very beneficial to Muslim governments to show that all non-Muslims are that bad, so that when they attack non-Muslims, no one of the Muslim nations will feel “sympathy” with those “bad” non-Muslims people.

10:37 am  
Blogger Hatem said...

I disagree with this, because the people who attack non-Muslims are individuals, but the people who attack Muslims are governments. This is self explanatory!

11:08 am  
Anonymous jason said...

Hatem...

Please explain how a cartoonist (individual) is a government?

And please explain why the "governments" of the Muslim individuals who physically and violently attach non-muslims and ruin the name of Islam for everybody else...causing the world to view Islamists as terrorists, sit back on their laurels, encourage them and do nothing to stop them?

And how the "governments" who want to protect their non-Muslim people and attack these individual Muslims who violently and physically attack non-Muslims are wrong for doing so...since the "governments" of the individual Muslims doing the attacking won't take care of the problem themselves?

Can you not see how stupid your statement was?

By the way, thanks for taking off the mask. Now we have a name to equate with the bollocks.

6:27 pm  
Blogger Tim Newman said...

...but the people who attack Muslims are governments

Yes, usually their own.

7:36 pm  
Blogger Hatem said...

Jason,

Using the words “stupid” and “bollocks” in your statements means one of two things, either you are used to say these words in your everyday talks, or you are losing your temper.

Back to our subject; someone is angry for not finding Lurpak in the market. This is because Muslims are boycotting Danish products because they are angry of a Danish cartoonist who insulted Prophet Mohammad, and his government didn’t object what he wrote. Why? Because he is free to say what he wants. Who cares about these Muslims if they are angry or not? They are much less in value to think about them, they are threating us the western civilized nations everyday with terrorism, and even they treat their own women in a bad way. Let them bang their heads in the wall, nothing is going to happen.

Now you are losing your temper and putting some insults in your speech, because you couldn’t accept the idea that some Muslims are opposing your highness in a discussion. How dare these people didn’t say “amen” to all what I said?! They deserve some insults to behave themselves!

Well, since we reached this point in our decent discussion, I am sorry to tell you that you will look for someone else to give your insults to.

I will tell you what both of us agreed on before, we are what we are and you are what you are and we will never meet. I am really happy for this… really!

10:07 pm  
Anonymous jason said...

Hatem...

You did not answer my questions.

What are we supposed to glean from this? Unless you say otherwise, I think that you could not come up with a good answer so you completely changed the subject.

A Muslim tactic that has been highlighted by Dammami in an earlier post on this same thread...

11:22 pm  
Anonymous Dammami said...

@emiraty

"Its _not_ anyone's right to force a shop keeper to sell specifies goods."

If your smart enough to make that observation, you should be smart enough to observe that is also _not_ anyone's right to stop a shopkeeper from selling those specific goods.

And yet they were still stopped from selling Lurpak through either direct intervention by authorities or intimidation and threats by fundamentalists.

5:09 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dammami

a typical red neck
authority and threats ?!lol

r u sure u live in this country ? or u live in iran ?

5:11 am  
Blogger Hatem said...

http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=3548990/

5:52 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is an excellent blog from Alhamedi

http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

4:36 pm  
Blogger Hatem said...

"Eight soldiers in riot gear and army uniforms can be seen dragging four boys or young men into the courtyard of a walled compound, wrestling them to the ground and battering them with more than 40 blows in two minutes. The boys offer little resistance and occasionally cry out, "No, please."

As the beatings escalate, a man with a British accent is heard yelling, "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. You’re gonna get it. Yes. Naughty little boys," followed by expletives and laughter."

http://www.dispatch.com/national-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/02/13/20060213-A3-02.html

8:56 am  
Blogger Keefieboy said...

And your point is?

9:03 am  
Blogger Hatem said...

My point?! Here is my point:

"Eight soldiers in riot gear and army uniforms can be seen dragging four boys or young men into the courtyard of a walled compound, wrestling them to the ground and battering them with more than 40 blows in two minutes. The boys offer little resistance and occasionally cry out, "No, please."

As the beatings escalate, a man with a British accent is heard yelling, "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. You’re gonna get it. Yes. Naughty little boys," followed by expletives and laughter."

If you need someone to translate it into English, tell me!

8:47 pm  
Blogger Keefieboy said...

And does this have anything to do with the topic you are commenting on? In case you've forgotten or just don't understand how blogs work, this thread is about the Danish cartoons controversy. It's not about the disgraceful behaviour of some Brit soldiers. In the unlikely event that I write a post about that in the future then you will be most welcome to comment on it.

Thank you and happy Valentine's Day.

9:11 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Danish Cartoons are offensive to muslims no doubt. But no muslim has the right to respond with violence or incite violence just because his faith has been offended. Hey people may not agree with each others beliefs but that does not give us the right to kill each other. I read that a lady in the UAE comment that it was halal to kill the US professor who distributed the cartoons at Zayed university! That is a barbaric comment. Sadly the violent protests have more than damaged the image of islam as a peace loving religion. These protests have actually aligned Islam with terror even more.

11:57 am  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where to start......
First let me say you all make very valid points. I'm an American, I don't watch Fox News. In fact the lowest rated network news has more viewers than Fox news. Second, yes the American government supported the Mujahadin(sp) in Afghanistan and Sadamm Hussien (sp) in Iraq, and these actions have come back to bite us in the ass. American conservatives like to bring up Saddam H. killed his own people with chemical weapons, yet when he was doing so the governments in the western world looked the other way. Yes the United States have committed atrocities in Iraq. The war was based on a lie. Yes we stick our noses where it doesn't belong and we should butt out. It's because I as an American value free speech and human rights that I don't like the bush administration. I understand the anger and offense but to threaten and rampage I don't understand. Protest, boycott, express your anger but dont' threaten death and burn and pillage. I agree the west has double standards but so to does the middle east. Believe me, I understand offense, I'm an American. I see all kind of crap stereotyping and which I consider offensive to Americans. We're greedy, fat, selfish, hateful, stupid , evil , brainwashed , the list goes on and on. I understand muslims don't want to be stereotyped as being terrorist because the vast majority are not. Just as the vast majority of Americans dont' fit the stereotype either. When an offensive stereotype of gays or minorities or christians is shown in the US people may boycott and get angry or protest but we use our voices to express our anger and I don't know of bounty put on anyones head. In the middle east free speech is stifled by the government in the west the government has no control over what people say. After the hurricane a resident of the affected area told Cheney to go fuck himself. He wasn't arrested, or threatened with death. Try that with the Mullas or kings. I think the west and the middle east should try to be more consistent and fair. If you can't insult Jews or christians then you shouldn't be able to inslult Muslims. If you scream about all the innocent lives lost in Iraq by american bombs and bullets then scream just as loud at the American, British, Spanish etc. lives lost by muslim extremists. I'm horrified by all the innocent people killed by my government. I'm also horrified by the innocent muslim and american lives lost to terrorism. That said i think we should all try to see things from one anothers perspective.

Tracy

1:47 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dubai sacks US prof for distributing Mohammed cartoons
Email to a friend
Print this article


08-02-2006 10:20 G.M.T. DUBAI, Feb 8, 2006 (AFP)

An American professor at Dubai's Zayed University was fired after she distributed cartoons depicting Prophet Mohammed out of "respect" for freedom of expression, the local press reported Wednesday.

The United Arab Emirates minister of education, Sheikh Nahyan bin Mubarak Al-Nahyan, also chancellor of the university, sacked Claudi Keepoz, saying her behaviour "has nothing to do with the freedom of expression."

Keepoz had reportedly told her female students on Saturday that "we should respect this freedom," as she distributed the cartoons, which have caused an uproar among world's Muslims.

A text message spread the news of her act.

"She accused Muslims of being narrow-minded and intolerant of others' opinions," it said. "Could you believe this to be happening the United Arab Emirates?"

"How long are we going to continue to glorify expatriates?" the message asked, referring to the hundreds of thousands of foreign workers who have provided the backbone for economic development in the Gulf state.

One studen'ts mother expressed satisfaction over the sacking.

"I was about to go to the university myself to punish her ... It is halal (permitted in Islam) to kill her," she told AFP, requesting anonymity.

3:40 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow..a lady says it is halal to kill the prof. Are such people real muslims?

3:42 pm  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you sick of all these religious squabbles orchestrated by an elite, who in order to gain control of the world are setting into motion the next world war. Think about it. What is the easiest way to conquer any nation or even the world? Divide it in opinion, belief and wealth. Throughout history this has been the easiest way – Divide and Conquer. The public are being taken for fools and all we can think about is which religion is right. FORGET RELIGION IT’S BOLLOCKS it serves no purpose. Why do you need to believe in some invisible higher being that does nothing but stand by and watch you all kill yourselves in the name of Him. Your religions have been the root of all wars and atrocities since recorded history began.
For the past 20 years or so we have managed to create this whole blame culture. This has made it easy for idiots across the world to murder, rape, steal, cause genocide, commit paedophilia, suicide bomb, carpet bomb and use nuclear warheads, and point the finger at someone or something else. If you have been a part of any of the things I have listed (and I’m sure there is more stuff that I’ve missed) and you’ve blamed it on your parents, religion or anything else for that matter, you’re a coward, a spineless piece of shit that doesn’t deserve the life you have been honoured with, you are evil, sick, twisted, fucked up arseholes – the voices in your head are yours. Yes your parents were evil and hurt you - but you carried out your life emulating them. Your god doesn’t ask you to strap a bomb to your chest and kill lots of innocent people in his name – you decide to do it. Who gives a shit about cartoons? – you do, not your god. Who gives a shit about Jerry Springer The Opera? – you do, not your god. You are either good or evil and only you can decide which to be. I don’t know about any one else but I’m worried, our world has gone to shit and is further sinking and all we can seem to do is fight. Believe it or not I used to agree with Ronald Reagan, who said something along the lines of “If there was a threat to this world from another planet. We'd find out once and for all that we really are all human beings here on this earth together”. I used to firmly believe, that if the people of earth were faced with an extraterrestrial threat that we would all pull together, now I’m not so sure.

posted by Buzzardguts

6:08 pm  
Blogger Hatem said...

"An Australian TV channel has broadcast previously unpublished images showing apparent US abuse of prisoners in Iraq's Abu Ghraib jail in 2003.
The images on SBS TV are thought to be from the same source as those that caused an outcry around the world and led to several US troops being jailed.

The new images show "homicide, torture and sexual humiliation", SBS said.

The US has said the images could only "incite unnecessary violence" and endanger US military personnel.

The broadcast of the images comes at a time of increased tension between Muslim nations and the West over cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4715540.stm

3:23 am  
Blogger Lalit Paryani said...

I couldn't agree with your thoughts any more. I simply cannot stand the fact that people are being injured (and even killed) because of a stupid cartoon which should've got by as a laugh and nothing more.

On a general note, I like reading your material. :)

11:25 pm  
Anonymous little_dubai said...

I am sooo impressed with all the comments..
Its refreshing to see that people actually take the time to think of what is happening in the world and HAVE an opinion..no matter what it is...
The Lurpak issue has made me think alot about alot of the current issues and where we stand in this world and how people really view us..
I was one of those many who were offended...and actually as stunned at the whole reaction...from both sides...I was 100% in favour of boycott that happened spontaniosly by people..it reflected our personal belief..excluding our government..the violence...I hated..what I hated most..was how people got carried away and flipped the point we were trying to make against us..
Saying all that...I cant agree with the comments saying that the government cant be responsible for individuals actions...cause if that was true and was how things worked in most of the countries...Afghanistan would not be hit...Palestinians would not be killed by the Israeli army...etc etc..
In many ways...countries are held responsible for the action of individuals...and to suffer the consequences...
The Islamic countries are not living their glorious days...these days at least..and I can say that we take half of the blame for that..and the other half is the agendas of other countries that talk democracy and freedom...

I dont see anything getting better until we start changing things in our self and then in our countries..the cant complain about the double standards that the west may have..when we live it everyday..we cant request to be respected until we know how to respect our selves within our community and be on our best behaviour that is the teaching of Quraan..we cant ask for things we cant give...and thats basically what it is...when our men are busy looking for women..and for the latest cell phone and the most expensive car...and when our women are busy shopping and buying all the expensive brands thinking the looks will make them better...while their children are raised by maids who dont carry the values the ask for and expect...
Lets just shut up and fix things within us before fixing it outside..
with that I leave you..
Easier spoken than done I guess

5:57 am  
Blogger Hatem said...

In 2000, a British court threw out a libel action he had brought, and declared him "an active Holocaust denier... anti-Semitic and racist".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm

10:36 pm  
Blogger Keefieboy said...

Hatem: if you want to raise other issues, start your own blog. This thread is basically finished and no-one's looking at it any more. Get it?

10:59 pm  

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